Mrs. Palin, Take 3
Published by heatherlinn September 1st, 2008 in Fun with PoliticsIt’s a bit past my bedtime to give too much of a response to the comments about Mrs. Palin but here’s a few thoughts to end the evening.
One thing we know about God is that He tells stories. He tells big stories. Stories that don’t always fit into our tidy little boxes. His stories have always been filled with exceptions as well as the exceptional character from time to time. Sarah Palin seems to be just that.
Sarah Palin’s story is not our story. I don’t know what prompted her to go the directions she has but there is nothing that I’ve seen that keeps me from believing she is both honoring God AND her husband in her public service. I think her place on the ticket has provided a great opportunity to work through these issues as Christian women, however let’s all remember that she too is a believer. We must not assume we know more than we do about her motives, her relationship with her family and husband, and how she handles her motherly responsibilities.
May God bless her and keep her through this time ahead.
It struck me when I heard the announcement about Mrs. Palin that it would be amazingly ironic if the first woman in the White House (as VP) actually spent more than a few years baking cookies!
Linda T
Well put! I am grieved at the responses that assume they know what God is doing in this woman’s life and the life of the country. Would you be happier if Hillary were on a ticket, with her sneering attitude toward women in the home?
I do feel for her, knowing she has a small baby and a growing family, but I would like to think that she & her husband have looked at this carefully and also have probably hired some domestic help for her so that she can still connect emotionally with her family without worrying so much about the details. I’m not saying it is absolutely right, (I honestly don’t know) but just that I’d rather attribute positive intent to this sister-in-Christ who seems to have much in common with many of us, instead of being her worst critics!
Although I don’t agree with this ENTIRE post (the one I’m going to link to, not yours), I love the way she paints the picture of Sarah Palin as a present-day Esther: http://tiny.cc/TjGi2 (and, I do agree with most of it
The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. God wants the world to see the beauty and goodness of godly marriage and motherhood. The question is, can He show the world this way — by lifting up a godly wife and mother to a position of prominence? Well, of course He can do it whichever way He pleases. So the second question is, would He do it this way? And that I don’t know the answer to. Of course He is the God who delights in story and surprises, but we are the people who are rather notoriously bad at figuring out which story and surprise He’s planning this time. Here’s the third question, the one I’m asking myself: a year or a term or a decade from now, will I be thanking God for letting me be a part of His plan by voting for McCain Palin, or will I be repenting of falling into the trap they’ve laid? Or will I be repenting for staying home or rejoicing that I did? Or will I be wondering how the story might have gone if we’d had the chance to see it played out? Is this a temptation to forsake my principles, or a test of my trust in His delightfully mysterious ways? I never worried for a moment about the Y2K threat because it just didn’t seem like a good enough story. This I’m not so sure of….
I probably also should add that I haven’t settled completely on voting for the ticket (though I’m leaning that way). I was surprised by McCain’s pick and now I’m working through it all like everyone else.
Thank you, that was well put, and fair, to say the least. It was certainly an interesting pick, and I cannot say that it was a bad one.
One thing I know for sure is that God works out the details of our individual and corporate lives according to His inexhaustively Sovereign will. What comes to pass is what He ordains. We sovereignty folks have a hard time accepting that some things happen in God’s world in the lives of His saints outside of our understanding of Him. It’s easy to profess that we believe in His sovereignty, much harder to live it out in our lives and accept it in the lives of His saints. Fact: In God’s sovereign will Mrs. Palin is the governor of Alaska. Fact: In God’s sovereign will Mrs. Palin is the vice presidential candidate. I pray she honors God in those callings as well as her calling as a wife and mother. I trust God in Sarah Palin’s life as I do in mine. I know for sure that His hand is on this country and what we get in the White House will be better than we deserve. I pray God will lead us all as we faithfully and prayerfully vote.
I’m sure we all have some stereotypical assumptions about what a woman who is home-centered looks like. But being home-centered is not the same thing as being in the home 24/7. The Proverbs 31 woman is running a real estate business and a clothing design business while managing all her helpers in the home as well.
We live in a day when many Christian women have come home to embrace their domestic duties, rejecting the feminist lies that disparage home and children. For this we can all be very grateful to God. From all I can tell at this point, the governor of Alaska embraces her femininity, her family, her call to motherhood, and her Christian principles. She clearly is a remarkable woman who has been given some remarkable opportunities. I had been praying for this election, praying something like: “Please God, do something!” And it seems to me that God has answered my prayer far beyond anything I would have even thought to ask. If she were embracing a feminist agenda, I would not be interested. But she is unashamedly standing up for certain key principles, and so far I admire her courage and faith.
I could be completely WRONG ;), but one thought I’ve had on all this is that maybe we are all thinking about this in a very American way. For example, what if Mrs. Palin were, say, on the ticket in a poverty stricken, oppressed, African, country? And what if she had the respect and popularity that she apparently has here? And what if she was toting her baby around, ‘taking care of business’ like we’ve seen photos of her here in the States? What if we saw her as God’s gift of a figure of hope (who could possibly bring real change!) to hopeless people?
It really is a LUXURY to be a Christian wife and mom in these United States. I think most mama’s in the world might be a bit aghast at what we might consider ‘the one right way’.
I would love to stir a thought into the minds of women who read here. Especially women who are confused about all this and even more for women who believe their only and ultimate role in this world is in the home.
“Then God said, Let Us make Man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” Gen. 1:26-27
Man is God’s creation. Male and female are Mankind. We both stand before God, side by side in this dominion mandate. It is not an option for us, it is a command.
It is sad that we have forgotten who God made us women to be. We were made next to man in the image of God and given the same command as the males, to take dominion of the world and it’s creatures. God was careful to mention in Gen. 2:20 that He made women to be Adam’s “helper comparable.” He was specific to take us from the Man’s side, not foot nor head (Gen 2:21). God did not leave a wound or a scar to show what a burden the female would be to the male, but he healed Man’s side and made him whole. All these things are significant. They communicate to us. If God had made women to be only a mother and wife who’s place was only under the roof her husband paid for, I am confident He would have said as much in the cultural mandate.
This does not take us away from our responsibilities in our homes. It is where our authority grows and matures. But a women who excels here is the kind of women God will use beyond the boarders of her own immediate territory. This is a women obeying God in taking dominion over what God has given her. It is in that obedience that God is blessing her and intrusting her in more responsibility to take dominion around her.
Mrs. Palin may very well be one of these women. We ought to watch and learn.
The fact is God will use whom He chooses. It does not contradict Gods word for a women to hold office in government (Deborah and Esther). As long as that women does not stand up in an ordained office of the church and proclaim the Gospel, she can not necessarily be accused of wrong. (I say necessarily because sin is possible in all realms of life.)
Ginny, you are right when speak of that struggling wife and mother. The women who struggles to get her household in order, she should keep her prayers and efforts there in her home where they are in great need. In truth that women has no place to forsake those needs to attend to others. However a women who has been blessed by God to rule well in her home, that blessing will and should spill out of that home (Prov 31). Who knows, some women are pretty amazing, the outpour can run far when you are faithful and filled with the power of the Spirit. It can even pour forth into Washington D.C.
Well said Heather! God does love stories and He has thrown a wonderful twist into this presidential candidate story, hasn’t He? Deborah was a wife when she judged Israel, in a time when men were not rising to the call. Barak gave his honor away to a woman because he wouldn’t go into battle without Deborah. Here we are in a similar time in history, and perhaps God is planning on putting Mrs. Palin into the White House, for His glory.
Since Sarah Palin’s intro to this season of politics, I have been trying to read up, listen, and learn about her. I have also been prayerful about all this. This morning I learned that Palin’s eldest daughter, who is 17, is pregnant out of wedlock. You have all probably heard of this news yourselves too. While I am so very glad that the Palin’s are pro-life and have stated that the daughter will have this baby with plans to marry the father, I must say how much more I am moved to prayer.
I would love to know your thoughts, Mrs. Wilson, on this new piece of information. When we look at leadership through a biblical lens, whether it be in the ecclesiastical arena or the civil arena, one cannot ignore the importance of ruling well in the home first. How do we reconcile these things? We are so blessed to have a God who offers grace and mercy. But while we surely just cannot ignore this like it doesn’t matter, it also seems like we must wrestle with this now and come to terms with it. I am hoping that your husband may address this on his blog as well.
I have appreciated some of the thoughtful responses on this thread. I keep thinking that we need to be really careful about comparing ourselves to Sarah Palin. People keep saying that’s she’s not a proper biblical role model to our daughters, and the fact is that she may not be the normative biblical role model for our daughters, and we shouldn’t view her as such, but that doesn’t make what she is doing or what she and her husband have decided God has called her to do sinful. There are times that I look at other women I know who cannot do as much or handle as much as I can, and I have to guard against sinfully thinking, “What’s wrong with them? Why can’t they do what I’m doing?” Just as often, I see other women who are capable of handling MUCH more than I am, and are doing it much better than I am, and I have to also guard against thinking, “What’s wrong with ME? Why can’t I do what she can?” The fact is that God has gifted each of us differently, and within a basic principle(as Nancy pointed out….embracing femininity, motherhood, family) the way we honor that principle will look different depending on our frame and situation. At 44 years of age, she may be able to structure and run her household in ways that some of us in our 20’s and 30’s couldn’t even imagine at this point in our lives. I know at this point in my fourth pregnancy, I have marveled at how much more I am capable of than I ever was with just one child, and with greater capability, comes more responsibility.
We’ve just heard her 17 year old daughter is pregnant. If true, this certainly reveals some gaps. We’re on the road right now, and so I’ll comment more later.
“I was surprised by McCain’s pick and now I’m working through it all like everyone else.”
And many thanks to you for doing so “out loud” here so we can all cogitate along with you!
Please take time to read this very short post on this subject. She says it very well…
http://mommylife.net/archives/2008/09/palins_announce.html
Here is an excerpt:
“I’ve heard from the pulpit that the abortion rate among evangelicals is as high as among the general population. That’s because evangelicals would rather face God’s judgment than the judgment of their peers. Hallelujah that the Palins - mother and daughter both - chose life when it would have been more convenient and less embarrassing to choose death.”
~~~~~
One more thought…Sarah Palin does not have to be the perfect Christian mother for us to vote for her. We must remember that none of these candidates are going to be the savior of the USA. We must vote for a person who will take this nation in the direction that we as Christians want it to go. Palin has a history of rooting out the corrupt, being frugal in government spending, and since she is adamantly pro-life she could save the lives of many babies. She also presents herself as delighting in being a mother, seeing children as a blessing, and honoring her husband (as she said in her acceptance speech). Let’s just keep watching and then decide who gets our vote.
Nancy, you said, “If she were embracing a feminist agenda, I would not be interested.”
Unfortunately, she IS a self-professing feminist. She is a long-time member of Feminists for Life. A feminist is just someone who believes in equality of the sexes. In her National Press Conference Announcement with John McCain she praised Clinton & Ferraro for their feminist accomplishments and talked about shattering the glass ceiling (i.e. the barrier separating men’s rights from those of women). Doug Phillips spoke of her feminist agenda on his blog a few days ago.
Palin is quoted as saying, “I was raised in a family where gender was not going to be an issue,” she said. “The girls did what the boys did. Apparently in Alaska that’s quite commonplace.”
Nancy, I’ve been reading and enjoying your blog for months and to be honest have been shocked and appalled by the favorable response to Mrs. Palin.
Genesis 3:16 tells us that a women’s natural sinful desire will be to rule over her husband, but that instead her husband will rule over her. In other words, a woman’s natural tendency is to kick against her husband’s headship. For those of you who have not heard this interpretation before, I encourage you to look it up. It is the historically held interpretation of the passage.
“To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you will bring forth children; yet your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.””
In I Timothy 2 Paul tells us that a woman should not teach nor hold authority over a man. He uses the creation ordinance as his justification. Women were not created to rule over men in any realm. Women were created to assist men in their rule.
“A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.”
Christians that try to make the argument that Paul was only talking about authority in the church have serious problems when attempting to apply their position.
God has laid out three realms of authority – state, church and family.
If women are to submit to men in the family and in the church it is absolutely necessary that they do so in the state. Otherwise lines of authority will ultimately cross. (Does Todd Palin have to submit to his wife in state issues?) This same issue comes to question in churches where women hold office. Does a husband have to submit to his wife when she is an elder in the church? This crossing of lines leads to authority chaos.
The roles of men and women were instituted at Creation. Women in general are to be subject to men in general. Men were created to rule, and women were created to help them.
With regard to Esther or Deborah, I’m not sure why Esther is even mentioned as she never held office. And with regard to Deborah, as John Knox so eloquently pointed out, Deborah was a judgment on the people because the men were so pathetic. There are plenty of Godly Christian men today who are far more qualified than this feminist. (And Deborah wasn’t a feminist!)
Everyone is talking about not judging Palin’s rule of her own household. We may not be able to judge what we don’t know, but we certainly can judge what we do know. We DO KNOW that she has been OUT OF HER HOME 40 HOURS/WEEK for 8 years RULING OVER MEN. And this was by CHOICE, NOT NECESSITY. And now her daughter is pregnant with a bastard child. Do you think the fact that her mother has been absent from the home for the majority of the day since her daughter was NINE years old has anything to do with this???
If she wants to be equal with men then let her be judged by men’s standards. Paul says that a man is not qualified to rule if he cannot even rule his own household. So her failure to manage her own daughter should disqualify her from ruling in any other realm. And all this if she were a man of course, but SHE’S NOT!!!
Everyone is rallying around her with golf claps for not violently slaughtering her Down’s baby. So you’re happy that she is not a murderer? These are the basics of life.
She opposes same-sex marriage, but one of her first acts in office was to veto a bill blocking health benefits for sodomite lovers of public employees. She vetoed a bill that was going to stop state financed healthcare for sodomites. In other words, she wanted our tax dollars to SUPPORT sodomites.
My husband is now praying that God will only judge us with a temporary tyrant like Obama rather than with a woman, who by example, will turn the family upside down for generations. (We are not going to vote for Obama, of course, we vote our conscience, Constitution Party.)
At least Christians will oppose Obama’s tyranny. Palin will give millions of Christian women the excuse to abandon their families and pursue the callings of men. This is the most seductive scam that Satan and the liberals have perpetrated in modern culture. The reason it is so seductive is because it is deceiving the most conservative Biblical camps in our culture. Conservative Christians are rallying around someone who is encouraging the flipping of the Christian household. Her rule will feed women’s natural tendency to kick against God’s authority structure and has the potential to destroy the Christian family.
We need to be dominion-oriented, thinking about the long term consequences of our actions.
Tina
Sandpoint, ID
Here is some food for thought:
http://www.voddiebaucham.org/vbm/Blog/Entries/2008/8/30_Did_McCain_Make_a_Pro-Family_Pick____.html
http://buriedtreasurebooks.com/weblog/?p=2481
Being the VP is a grueling job. It’s not a normal job but an extremely demanding one. We aren’t talking 9 to 5.
On another note: I wonder how much influence the VP has on judicial appointments. The McCain/Palin ticket still has a presidential nominee who has shown by his record that he is not as pro-life as he would like us to think he is, and I don’t think Sarah Palin will be able to counteract that as much as some people are hoping, if at all.
Respectfully submitted to give another point of view.
Re: VP’s don’t have ‘real power’.
In my lifetime, 3 of our US VP’s have gone on to become President.
I found the term in Tina’s post, “b****** child” inappropriate. Nancy?
Sarah P.
If Tina reads KJV, bastard is the term I would expect her to use.
In Him
Meredith
Nancy’s call what stays on her blog, of course, but Tina used the word accurately so I don’t know why it would be inappropriate.
I agree bastard is not used out of context. Infact SHE UNDERSTANDS and has used it correctly. Look this is a reformed blog not a disposensationalistic ultra political love the sinner blog. This is reality and the nature of reality is that kid is a fatherless bastard and Sarah has neglected her duties as a wife and now their family is showing the problems associated with a gender confused family…
Daddy should not be at home changing diapers while mommy goes off to create laws…
Wrong is wrong is wrong…
Luke
Yes, Tina did use the term accurately. I consider the term inappropriate for a number of reasons, but most dispute over words is unprofitable. The primary reason that I have a strong emotional reaction against the term is that my husband and I have chosen to be adoptive parents. As such, we have chosen to call one or more such children ‘daughter’ or ’son’.
Confession time. This whole thing with Sarah Palin really has me emotionally churned up. I am a homemaker, mother of eight, youngest child age two. I’ve stayed home, loving and caring for them, running the home for my children and husband for more than twenty years. It’s very demanding work. The world thinks it’s foolish, but my people, the Church, have always told me the work I do is vital to my husband, my children, and the Kingdom. I’ve had to fight the current of the World and teach my daughters to do the same. I feel like a soldier who has been told to defend a vital hill, who suddenly realizes the army is pulling back and leaving him there. I’m fighting and I thought you Brothers had my back. Why tell us we’re truly needed at home and then, with barely a glance back at us, rush to send a Sister with a four-month-old baby into a grueling job that demands almost all her waking time? (I’m not talking about Doug Wilson. I know he’s still weighing things and I’m glad he’s using his blog for discussing this as it unfolds.) Am I alone in this reaction? Do any of you other ladies have this feeling?
I agree with Tina’s application of the word as the child was conceived outside of wedlock and is the product of a broken home.
It does not matter if they are going to get married down the road. That is like saying it is not a baby till it’s born. The word is appropriate; Sarah has abandoned her responsibilities as a wife and mother. Her home is now broken.
Kristen I have your back. Praise God for people who are willing to call good, good and evil, evil. Of all places this is a place
I am sure Doug is not weighing in on things this is a clear a case of a woman acting outside of her God given rules. Doug is more then likely testing the water to see how many of the sheep are off track and lost in poor unbiblical doctrine… Turning her family inside out and confusing the Reformed Christian women.
Amber
I would just like to comment on the use of the term “bastard” that has been floating around here. I am not so much offended by the choice of word, but more what is implied by choosing that word– that the child is somehow “marked”. My husband is a “bastard” and he is a devoted minister of the gospel. His mother chose life, as has Bristol Palin. It is an easy enough sin to ‘get rid of’but she hasn’t.
I am disappointed to see an unwed young woman be pregnant– but I can’t help but think about personal accountability for sin.
While the Palin parents do need to hold some of the blame for their daughter’s situation, as a 17 year old woman surely she needs to be held responsible for some of her own sin.
My concern about appropriateness had nothing to do with the literal meaning of a word used in a wonderful Jacobean translation, as much as the connotation it carries in this time and place. Tina chose a word that carries a strong, unkind connotation is this time and place. If that accurately communicates her heart, it accurately communicates her heart. If that word & it’s current connotations are acceptable in this forum, then that is instructive as well.
Kirsten,
You are not alone! I’ve got your back, sister! And the folks at Ladies Against Feminism & Vision Forum do too.
Like I said in my previous comment, this move is so dangerous because it’s so seductive. It’s got conservatives talking out of both sides of their mouths. Talk about double standards…
All this to say, you are not alone.
Go to www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com. You’ll feel better!
Tina
Sandpoint, ID
P.S. No offense to the ladies here. I’m not trying to make it sound like she should dust off her feet and march over there. I’ve gleaned much here over the months. But on this issue she might find comfort with likemindedness.
Sarah:
it is not about communicating her heart but the reality of the situation. It is a shame to be conceived outside of love and God’s covenantal union.
It’s not Tina’s heart but a matter of a fact and the nature of reality; a harsh reality but reality nonetheless.
Amber
For me, the most interesting thing that has arisen from Sarah Palin’s selection has been the swirl of converstion and the flood of thought about women’s roles in and out of the home, role models, the distinction between submission and subjection…and on and on.
But it seems that we are getting a little wrought up at times. While it is neccessary for us to be discerning, and to carefully look at her and all the ramifications we might expect were she to become our VP, we can do so with a certain level of detachment if we can keep it in view that God is soveriegn. We are still required to give thanks in all things, to rejoice in all things, to pray without ceasing, and to control our tongues. As much as it is unlovely and ungodly for a woman to rule over her husband, it is unlovely and ungodly for us to rant in inflammatory terms.
Sometimes, that which is “accurate” might not be edifying.
I have to agree that the term, with its current connotation, while accurate, is inflamatory. In a post punctuated by several phrases in all caps, it appears even moreso. There is a kinder way to say it.
Missy, I think your admonishment is well put. Thank you.
It is a shame on the heads of the unwed parents of that child, but not to the child itself. It is a shame that they acted as they did but that child had no control over it and cannot and should not be responsible for it’s parents actions. It is no shame to be a child out of wedlock, although the actions leading to the conception are shameful. To put that on the head of a child with no say or influence on the situation is hardly right.
Dear Kirsten -
the situation with Sarah Palin certainly does not negate the beautiful act of obedience you have demonstrated in your devotion to your family.
Try not to take t personally or to extrapolate from this unique situation that those of us who’ve advocated home first are changing our basic view. What we are doing is supporting what seems to many of us to be an unusual move of God, who often doesn’t fit into our paradigms.
Who would have supported a mother putting her baby in a basket and floating it down the river? And who would have scolded Joseph and Mary because they let their son get away from him?
While our patterns of righteous living may be very good and beneficial, God is not limited to them.
God still sees your devoted heart and it would never matter what the world thought - that would never change.
But He may have a different plan for Sarah right now - one which will require sacrifice on her part and her family’s. That’s not unusual when God has a job to be done.
Ironically, I believe that when Sarah Palin is in office, the respect for motherhood will rise! This is not a woman who went looking for power, but a woman who, I believe God is using to accomplish something that can only be accomplished the way He has determined.
Believe me, this will not devalue motherhood. Sarah, who wears her baby in a sling while signing bills into law (see mommylife.net) is showing what real motherhood looks like.
I invite you to read all the discussion at my blog and then to pray. I must emphasize again that God is doing something fresh and new here - something which may save our country from complete destruction. He is showing that pro-life is beautiful in a way He could only show with a mother.
Please pray for Sarah and her family. And rest assured that God is in control. He is a God of magnificent and compelling stories - and if you think about them and imagine being there way back when, you can imagine the negative thoughts and grave concerns you would have had.
Bless you and your family and the work you do each day, which remains largely unacknowledged. God sees it and He blesses it.
Was it inflammatory when Jesus called people white washed tombs? or snakes? or hypocrites? Or when Calvin called people filthy dogs? Was it edifying? It is absured to condemn someone for labeling the situation. I don’t believe Tina’s intention was to blame a child. (please correct me if I am wrong Tina) It is obvious by reading these posts, it is the message not the delivery that is angering people. Heck, if she just said “out of wedlock” the consequences would be the same. Some of the ladies here would find something else to nitpick. Look what happened to Dan Quale when he used the term.
Bottom line here is that the Bible is crystal clear, women should not be ruling over men.
Pat
Barbara,
You said:
“What we are doing is supporting what seems to many of us to be an unusual move of God, who often doesn’t fit into our paradigms.”
I don’t understand your reasoning. Obama doesn’t fit into my paradigm either, but I’m not about to call it an unusual act of God and start supporting his campaign.
It’s either Biblical or it’s not. We must make principled decisions.
It’s as if you ladies decided it would be great to see a pro-life mother of 5 in office and therefore made up the idea that God is working in “exceptions” and “crooked lines” and “stories” and “unusual moves” to support yourselves.
This doesn’t seem like Biblical reasoning to me.
Tina
Sandpoint, ID
Regarding the questionable term regarding Bristol Palin’s child, the term may be accurate, but is it a term seasoned with salt? Is it edifying?
In my half a century plus on this earth, the only people I’ve heard flaunt the term have been quite self-righteous and prideful. We have a pastor whose first child was born out of wedlock. God used that circumstance for good in their lives, quickening them from church-goers to Christians at the forefront of the battle. He married his girlfriend and they now have four children. He is one of the best pastors we’ve ever sat under (the best being Doug of course) and they are amazing Christian parents.
Just a thought about how right vocabulary doesn’t always equal right-heartedness.
Solomon was a bastard, and David continued to reign, and we understand David to be a man of God.
My husband has made a helpful distinction for our kids that I think is very helpful and particularly suited for this situation.
He has designated certain words “pulpit words” that are to be saved for the pulpit and other special occasions. The words are not “bad” but should not be used carelessly or flippantly.
Powerful words can be degraded with careless use. Lets save this one for when our Pastors really needs it.
Or need it!!
Wow, thank you ladies for such a thoughtful and profitable discussion on this topic. If nothing else, I’m glad the Lord brought Gov. Palin to the limelight just so we could wrestle with ourselves!
And Heather, thanks for being willing to light the fuse… brave.
In a way we are all bastard children on whom God in his infinite grace had mercy to include in His family…
May I quote _A Serrated Edge_ in a couple places? I think these excerpts are relevant to the discussion…
Straight off the back cover:
In every controversy, godliness and wisdom (or the lack of them) are to be determined by careful appeal to the Scriptures and not to the fact of people having taken offense. Perhaps they ought to have taken offense, and perhaps someone ought to have endeavored to give it.
From page 104 and 105:
Of course, in saying all this, there are a few caveats of the “don’t try this at home” variety. I believe that true biblical balance in such things is the fruit of wisdom,and that such balance is not usually found in hot-headed young men who do not know what spirit they are of (Lk. 9:55). Consequently, prophetic rebukes should come from seasoned prophets, from men called to the ministry of guarding those people who belong to the Lord. The work should be done by men of some age and wisdom, and not by novices, firebrands, and zealots. The work should most certainly not be done by the kind of man who practices on his mom, wife, or kids. Satire is a weapon to be employed in the warfare of the kingdom, not an opportunity for personal venting. A man who has a need to cut others is a man who ought to be silent.
I came across this blog at the request of a friend of mine, who was lamenting the sorry state of our country and the church. I agree. Instead of focusing on God’s Law, His instruction with respect to choosing a leader, and glorifying Him, you have chosen to quibble about the use of the word bastard (which I believe was used appropriately.) One author even stated that the use of the word bastard showed a mean-spirted attitude toward Mrs. Palin. It appears that political correctness has invaded the thoughts of conservative Christians. However, no one benefits when we try to hide sin. Sin is ugly and specific sins have specific names. We all have sin and we all should be striving to drive it from our lives and the world. The use of any particular term should not distract us from the real issue at hand.
We are choosing a leader who is next in line to be arguably the most powerful human on earth. It seems that God would have something to say about this to give us guidance. Maybe you can choose to ignore it, but I have found that ignoring God’s word is not profitable. Both I Timothy Chapter 3, and Titus state that being a leader is a noble endeavor for a man (man not being gender neutral in this case.) To summarize, a leader should be a man with his house in order, following God’s law. Since it is our responsibility to JUDGE who will be a good leader, a substantial portion of I Timothy and Titus tell us the objective criterion with which to JUDGE who will be a good leader.
First, the leader should be the husband of one wife. This is an objective test. In order to be a husband, it logically follows that God prefers men in positions of leadership. (Using God’s definition of marriage; I am nor sure if anyone reading this blog has adopted the California definition of marriage as his standard.) Sarah Palin fails this test. Let’s just give her a pass on this one, and pretend she is Sam Palin.
Let’s take a look at Sam Palin’s household - a pregnant, unwed daughter. That would appear to be a problem. It is disgraceful. Everyone knows it is disgraceful. This is the reason we are talking about it. Even the God-hating pagans know that it is disgraceful, and will use this fact to their political advantage. If we were evaluating Sam Palin instead of Sarah Palin, I venture to guess that a majority of the uptight feminists who contribute to this blog would be in an uproar. Even Mitt Romney, a Mormon, has his house in better condition than Sam Palin. Yet, a majority of the contributions herein are willing to overlook this deficiency because Sam Palin doesn’t even meet the first qualification of leadership. Sam Palin has some other unusual characteristics as well.
Sam Palin is a self-described “hockey mom” which he equates with being a “pit bull with lipstick.” Sam Palin nurses his infant child in the governor’s office. Sam Palin is an avid moose hunter and a life-long member of the NRA. Sam’s wife Todd stays home with their five children and cares for them. Role reversal is not honoring to God, it is sin. If we ignore God’s mandates things get all screwed up; they always have and they always will. God is sovereign. If you can’t see his mandate in the BIG things how will you ever see them in the small things.
I have a great idea; let’s do what Hollywood and the liberals do. Let’s ignore God’s law and make up our own truth. We will call her “Palin” because it is gender neutral. We will call the bastard child a “love child” – that way we can vote for Palin with a clear conscience before God. He will never know the difference.
It seems that there’s a lot of stone throwing going on!
And may I just say it’s easy to pick on an unwed mother (she obviously had sex). It’s easy to judge the parents of this girl because we all know (we see it on TV don’t we) that there are problems in the home. BUT, how many parents can HONESTLY say their kids are pure when they get married? This girl is getting married to the father of the child…the CHILD is not fatherless, they are doing the right thing. We all sin, but it’s easy to judge those whose sin is public. It takes so much more love to reach out and not judge, as Christ did with the Adulteress. He did not excuse her sin, but rather forgave her and told her to sin no more.
Perhaps it would help some of the ladies commenting to remember that only if they are without sin may they start hurling stones at Sarah and her daughter.
TIM wow!!! You hit the nail on the head… I guess us girls needed some clear manly logic =) thanks…
Amber
I don’t want to rip into Sarah Palin and her family. She’s a sister in the Lord and I’m praying for her. I think all the issues that need to be discussed can be discussed without being harsh and inflammatory.
There is nothing harsh or inflammatory about calling sin what it is. If you do not recognize it and call it out, soon you will be murdering your babies in the name of “choice.” This is what we have become as a nation. Do you seriously think God will bless us as a nation if we ignore His word and instructions.
I am praying for Palin as well. I pray that she will repent and return home to get her house in order. I would rather have Mitt Romney as a VP because he is better qualified under objective standards laid out by God, Himself – not that I want him as VP or would in fact vote for him, but he is better qualified. This woman is not qualified, even if she were a man. The fact that she holds herself out as a Christian, makes it even worse, because she should have enough sense to follow God’s law which she is claiming as her own. She will do damage to the Church of Christ.
You should not let your emotional baggage get in the way of making a rational judgment based on God’s standards.
Nancy, I’m needing some help in reconciling your current statements to your previous edifications to us. In your post “Mothers and Daughters” on August 7th you discussed how we as mothers teach our daughters who they ought to be in Christ. You said that, “our daughters want to know who they are and what they are supposed to be doing as women.” And that “mothers need to raise their daughters to unashamedly know who they are. This gives them a tremendous sense of security. What a blessing and a relief it is to know everything is not up for grabs.”
In response to comment on how a mother should react to “career day” at her daughter’s school:
You said “I would suggest you not react at all. It would be better to just be the kind of mother who delights in the home and the family. That, combined with teaching, will enable your daughter to make the right choices, both in kindergarten and beyond!”
While I understand that you are not yet supporting Palin specifically, I am truly confused that your comments appear to be supportive of the principle in general – that it is okay for a woman to desire to be vice president.
It is interesting that you have said she seems to be embracing “her femininity, her family, her call to motherhood, and her Christian principles.” I see the opposite. It seems to me a woman who embraces Christian femininity or whose priority is her home would refuse the VP ticket offer (I won’t even go into the fact she is a governor).
She may have fine qualities. She may even be someone we can respect in many ways. She may love her home and her family. She may be “remarkable” as you have put it. She may even be a breath of fresh air compared to other candidates and woman such as Hillary Clinton. But that does not mean we as Christian women, with a full understanding of Scripture, should be happy that she is on the ticket. And I don’t find it entertaining that the world, once more, is receiving a mixed message from the Christian community.
What I am having the most difficulty with is how consistent your edification has been to the wives and mothers on this site in terms of where our hearts, eyes and efforts should be. And now like Kristen, I must confess I feel rather deserted. I don’t believe you would exhort us to teach our young girls to reach for the presidency (or vice-presidency). Yet your reaction to Mrs. Palin is perplexing.
I find this an incredibly strange disconnect in what is usually rather consistent edification.
It’s a matter of VOLUME, Tim. I mean, we don’t have to shout to be faithful to God’s Word. There is plenty in Proverbs about how to season our speech.
Dear United States:
It has come to my attention that your women are choosing to terminate their pregnancies. Would you be so kind as to ask these misguided individual to refrain from engaging in this conduct in the future. Thank you in advance for your cooperation and courtesies. I really appreciate it.
P.S. God thanks you too!
Yes Dear United States:
It has come to my attention that when a woman does not kill her child they are fit to be VP.
Yeah and thank you for giving us a non child killing woman to rule over us.
Amber
I feel better. Don’t you?
I entered this thread to discuss whether or not one ought to support Sarah Palin. And I haven’t seen a good argument yet.
I wasn’t throwing stones or name calling when I said “bastard child”. I just believe we should use Biblical language. It’s not an affair, it’s adultery. It’s not gay, it’s sododmy. And as Tim said, it’s not a love child, it’s a bastard child. Do you see the seduction in the politically correct terms? They all frame sin in an emotionally jaded positive light. I won’t use them.
Tina
Sandpoint, ID
Thank God for Palin:
I mean with the great example she is setting for me and my family. My girls and I are so proud to be alive in this great time when that glass ceiling is breaking and we will have our turn to rule the world.
I am already getting involved in local government. In-fact I have already told my husband and children that they are going to have to start getting in line and supporting me. By cleaning and cooking for themselves.
Also I think I will follow in the good Christian example she has set forth on supporting the homosexuals in Alaska. One of her first acts in government in Alaska was a Veto on a bill that would have block homosexuals partners of state workers from benefits… What a good lady… How could any of us Christians not mistake her as devine…
Come on women lets unite and get behind this great Godly woman Sarah Palin brought up by the Lord like Deborah…
Amber
Oh btw NO SATIRE HERE…
Tim,
Just because someone exhorts us to debate this topic in an edifying manner, that does not mean we are ignoring Scripture.
As someone pointed out, this woman professes faith in Christ and we ought to do the charitable thing and take her at her word and extend kindness where it is no doubt needed.
If tonight Sarah Palin treats her family’s crisis as no big deal, that would be different. But, it sounds to me like the family is choosing to do what is right.
Now, the next issue is whether she ought to be elected to the VP slot on McCain’s ticket - well that is indeed another debate. I’m not ready to support that choice yet. I know it’s hard on blogs to keep the lines of debate straight, but in the final analysis, when it came to the issue of the names we call these children, I thank you for proving my original point!
Jeanette:
I don’t even know how to respond to such a convoluted argument.
A leader must be above reproach. I Timothy 3:7.
Her family crisis is percisely why she should not be raised as a leader. What difference does it make at this point how she responds to the problems that she created herself. This is like the child who murders his parents and requests lenity because he is an orphan.
Kindness has nothing to do with the reality of her situation. Sin is ugly. It has ugly names. Don’t fall into the trap of edifying sin by calling it a pretty name. This is a shameful situation.
Is it asking too much to put up a leader that can withstand the scruteny of an objective evaluation?
“I entered this thread to discuss whether or not one ought to support Sarah Palin. And I haven’t seen a good argument yet.”
Tina, you appear to have entered this thread in search of a platform for your ideas. Discussion involves some respectful give and take. In a healthy exchange of ideas, there is at times a humble nod when an opponent sheds light upon the subject under discussion.
There is a fair amount of good argument here, if one has an eye open to see it.
Tim,
May I reaffirm that I am not supporting her as VP, nor McCain as Pres. But, I am willing to consider the views of the wise women on this blog. It’s a worthy discussion.
You trully have ascribed to me a convoluted interpretation of my very simple post about Christian public discourse.
I had no idea I Tim 3:7 applied to secular government leaders, I thought the context was church leadership!
Sin is ugly and you seem to be a fellow who is content to go about his day posting sticky notes on everyone’s nose with just the right ugly word on it.
The only ones I read Jesus using ugly terms with were the Pharisees. Remember what He said to the men who were ready to pick up the stones against the woman caught in adultry?
So, are we all now agreed that what is required for Church leadership is also normative for heads of State? Because I had always thought the passages quoted by Mister Tim (if I knew your last name I certainly would use it) were not pertaining to leadership generally but church leadership specifically.
What am I missing?
Mrs Butler,
Paul appeals outside the Church to another realm of authority, the Family, to justify his qualifications. This is why they apply to anyone wanting to rule over others. If you can’t get the very, very, basics of life in order like raising a family up in the fear and admonition of the Lord how could you possibly rule over others? This is Paul’s point. He lays claim outside the Church to justify the leadership in the Church. He is appealing from the lesser to the greater. These are universal principles.
Here is a wonderful passage speaking of requirements of State officers.
Exodus 18:21,23 “Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens.” 23″If you do this thing and God so commands you, then you will be able to endure, and all these people also will go to their place in peace.”
It is clear they are to be Men not Woman.
Jeanette:
You are a liar. You stated that I “seem to be a fellow who is content to go about his day posting sticky notes on everyone’s nose with just the right ugly word on it.” This is a lie and you should repent.
I am not sure why you are trying to besmirch my character. All I have said in these postings is that the term bastard is an appropriate term for a child conceived out of marriage. I have stated that abortionists are murderers and that we should not make up cute names to defend these people. Now you say I am someone who throws around accusation wildly. Perhaps you should go back and reread the posts so that you are not so confused.
As for Jesus reserving harsh words for the pharisees, you may want to look at Matthew 16:23.
Tim,
I’m a sinner, but I’m not a liar. But at least I know what my sticky note is now.
Missy,
I think I had a respectful give and take going with Nancy.
But to be honest I feel nitpicked to death.
Even you, I asked you a legitimate question, but instead of answering it you came back with accusations and nitpicks.
Why is it that women focus on nitpicking someone’s delivery and semantics, instead of on the issues at hand?
I guess I have missed good arguments. Perhaps you could recap for me?
Thanks,
Tina
Jeanette;
You say: “I’m not a liar.” (lots of laughing in the back of my mind) WOW Jeanette! Congrats on that remarkable achievement of perfection; I mean you still have to work on the fact that you are a sinner… But WOW you amaze me with your Jesus and God like quality of not being a liar.
OK now for your reality check. How dare you praise yourself with such a vile lie… Only of fool would make such a blasphemous statement.
I guess then the word of God must be a lie according to you and that reckless statement that you so arrogantly put forth about yourself; for surely I say to you because the word of God says (Romans 3:4) … let God be true; all men are found liars… or (Psalm 116:11) … “All men are liars.”.
Your level of self deception is truly frightening. Yes I know, I know that’s harsh but lets face it the TRUTH unlike a lie is always straight and hard to swallow.
Amber
someone wise up to the rooftop.
Hang in there Jeanette.
Good night! Do you guys talk to people in your local congregations like this? You can be faithful and direct about God’s Word without being mean. It can be done and it’s worth learning how to do it.
Tim, why don’t you go find some men to straighten out? I think you’ve worked us ladies over quite enough.
My posts offered solid objective analysis until I was personally attacked by Jeanette. Now you invite me to leave. If you don’t like the message, kill the messenger. I guess this presuposes why you “ladies” need a head.
I’ve got one, and you ain’t it. Really, Tim, you should live out your principles by treating ladies with respect and courtesy. Don’t talk like a Christian, and then fight like an egalitarian. Snap! I just put my pearls back in my pocketbook.
It is a shame to see this site reduced to name calling. Are we speaking the truth in love? Are we honoring each other? Before anyone accuses me of being politically correct or attempts to justify themselves with righteous anger, ask yourself if you have shown love to your neighbor by being patient with them. So Jeanette says she is not a liar. Does that mean she implied she never lies, she is incapable of lying? Of course not. If you took the time to be patient with her, gave her an ounce of understanding, you would know that she means she does not believe she was lying in the context at hand. But everyone is so desperate to prove their correctness on a blog on the internet with people who will prove no consequence to them in the actual world and who believe the slightest disagreement with them is proof of the other person’s heathen origins. Tina and Tim, you have not made a case for why women should be subject to all men. The Bible clearly states that women should honor all men and likewise men should honor all women. The Bible also clearly states women should submit to their own husbands. Not to anyone else’s but rather honor all people. Can a woman be a national leader and be subject to all men? No, but can a woman be a leader and honor all men? Yes for honor is not outright submission but rather seeing another person for who they are in Christ, admonishing them when admonishing is appropriate and encouraging where encouragement is appropriate. Whether Palin will be an honorable leader for the US is yet to be seen.
Now in regards to creation order and church leadership, that is an entirely different case. Women are to submit to their own husbands as it is demonstration of the covenant between Christ and the Church. Women are to be in submission to the leaders of the Church because they are taking part in the covenant. As far as I can see, there is no covenant made with America and Christ. Likewise there is no covenant made within a business. Therefore, a woman should not have to consider herself as subject to men outside of their own family and church.
Patricia,
I have been making an argument for it. It is the exact same reason that children should honor adults.
Like I just posted over on the other thread, if someone told you, Patricia, that children owe no respect or honor to any adult other than their parents, what would you tell them?
I’m saying if you don’t think women owe men any special respect then you MUST throw out your belief that children owe adults any. If a wife only owes special honor to her husband and all other men are peers, then children only owe their parents special honor and all other adults are peers.
Tina
Tina, honoring does not necessitate obeying. If my unbelieving parents ask me to sin, I honor them by not obeying and pointing them to Christ. Children are called to obey their mother and father and honor all others. If an adult friend asks my child to come do chores at his house against my will, my children are to obey my wishes and treat the man with respect at all times, even when disagreeing (something that has been lost by some of posters on this blog.) On the same page, men are due a special respect and honor but the Bible says so are we. Honor goes both ways. I don’t understand why this is so hard for you to understand.
It is apparent that this is not a reformed blog; I would suggest for the people here who understand what I said above look for likeminded people elsewhere… this is the land of confusion…
Amber
Patricia,
Your last sentence is extremely offensive when you are the one refusing to read my comments. I’m going to quote myself below:
“Again they don’t have to obey their every request, but there is a general respect and understanding of their authority.”
“I agree that women and children do not have to obey those who are not in DIRECT authority over them. But I believe they should be extremely respectful to them.”
“I used the word “subject” instead of just “respect” because the principle is derived from the authority command. It’s more than just a general respect. I used “subject” because my respect for men causes me to have a general subjection to them (not that I have to obey anyone other than my husband).”
“After reading the catechism and scripture proofs on the subject I would like to change my word to “honor”. I never thought of it before now. I knew it was more than just “respect”, but “subject” does definitely have a connotation of obey. So I would like to revise my position to say that all women should honor all men.”
“I keep saying they don’t have to obey. I feel like you are not listening to me either.”
“Why do children have to honor (not obey) adults in general more than their peers?”
How many times do I have to say it? And you accuse me of having a hard time understanding?
Can we get beyond this obey thing and talk about respect/honor, the same kind that we teach our kids to do to adults?
Tina
Gracious, kind, and gentle words, thoughtfully written by women who exhibit the fruit of the Spirit, stand apart from the words written by those who are angry, contentious, quarrelsome, lacking self-control. How sad that some do not know how to accurately handle the Word, and even use the Scriptures to accuse rather than speak the truth in love. Those who have responded with much wisdom are noted by those who likewise have such wisdom, and those who have an “axe to grind” sound like ” a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal”.
It is good to have a robust discussion of the issues involving this presidential election, as well as many other topics. Accusations and judgements are immature and unnecessary and are wasting the time of those who read this blog to gain instruction, insight and encouragement .
I mean lets face it when the core of the apple is bad toss it out… don’t be deceived Tim, Tina, Pat, Eileen (notice how I don’t treat Tim as a peer (feminist take notes) and place him first) bad company corrupts good morals. If they hate the LAW they hate the LAW giver.
It is sadly apparent that if they can find no truth in the LAW of God but rally behind un-Biblical rhetoric, a women abandoning her God given duties (Sam Palin), a liar, a bastard …etc… resistance here is futile, they have been assimilated. Remember good soil accepts the seed… all you have to do is deliver the word. God will sovereignly raise up his elect. His sheep hear his word and follow…
Amber
I read this thread before I read the other so I apologize for saying that you are equating that children obey all adults. However you say in the newer thread:
The reason all women should honor all men is the same reason all children should honor all adults. God has instituted an order and hierarchy in the home, church and state. And its arms reach beyond the direct authority of husband over wife, mother over child, elder over parishioner, law enforcement over citizen.
Based on this comment you still seem to imply that women are called to honor men because they are all higher than us. What can we say about this statement when it has been said that Christians are to honor everyone? Everyone is to place everyone before themselves. Are men ontologically higher than women? God did not think so as He shared the gospel with both when He walked on the earth.
Why Kristen, did you just call me a swine? You did it in such a cute and cleaver manner that you must feel really good about it. That was a loving way to do that.
Jeanette: I did not put a sticky note on your nose, you did.
Patricia,
I would ask you, just because we are to honor everyone, does this mean we don’t have to submit to our husbands, or children obey their parents? The command to honor everyone is above and beyond what we already owe to each specifically. And I’m trying to make the argument that women owe men a certain level of honor just because they are a lord, just as children owe adults a certain level of honor just because they are adults.
I would say that you must allow your children just to “honor everyone” and not adults in general if you hold this position about men and women.
Everyone is equal ontologically, including children. But men were created to be lords and women were created to be helpmeets. Women don’t suddenly become lords the minute they step outside the home or outside the church doors. What a crazy world that would be.
Tina
Of course children are to obey parents and women are submit to their own husbands. Your emotions are guiding your logic. Just because I say everyone is to honor everyone does not mean I have thrown out obeying parents and submitting to husbands and church elders. Read my replies and understand the context. Instead of reacting, listen. I cannot and will not converse with you if you will not argue logically.
I’m wondering which of the Biblical patriarchs would withstand this sort of critique. Abraham, who pimped out his wife? David, who committed adultery and had the husband killed?
Other than Christ Himself, we do not have an example of a leader who is “above reproach” if you define that term to mean sinless. The question is not: is Governor Palin sinless? Of course not. Do we really want to engage in the debate of “how fallen is she really?” That judgment is truly “above my pay grade.” Those who object to Governor Palin based on the pregnancy must suggest a better option. Who do you propose we vote for? Is there another candidate who has done no wrong? Whose immediate family members have never engaged in premarital sex? Or pride? Or stone-casting, or legalism, or just plain meanness? Show me such a person. They don’t even have to be a candidate; just show me any old person. I’ll write him in on my ballot.
Lots of folks here are wielding heavy swords, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But let’s be careful where we do the cutting and not lose any little toes. The Gospel is divisive enough without my help.
I suppose we could all hide in a cave and wait for the United States to become a theocracy. I’d better pack lots of canned goods; we might be there awhile.
Brandi, I propose we write in Jesus for 2008!
Patricia,
You continue to be offensive. Must you insult me, or can we just discuss the issues?
It is actually you that have missed my argument. My argument was a reductio. Of course we dont’ throw out legitimate authority just becaus on top of that we should honor everyone. I’m arguing that if my position is valid, it is no more nullified by the “honor everyone” than a woman’s submision to her husband or a child’s obedience to his parents is.
Please be careful in throwing accusations at me.
Tina
P.S. I’m closing the windows. I shouldn’t even have refreshed this last time. I’ll be back later.
Not Jesus, but I’m considering writing in Ron Paul even though he’s removed himself from the running. Whether or not I like Palin seems inconsequential b/c