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	<title>Comments on: Dress Codes</title>
	<link>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 03:57:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Megan Lindsay</title>
		<link>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-106554</link>
		<dc:creator>Megan Lindsay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 22:05:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-106554</guid>
		<description>Jessica, I looked at your website and was so happy!  Congratulations on making wrap-style dresses that don't plunge to the bellybutton or require frumpy safety pinning to keep closed (like many of mine)!  You go, girl.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jessica, I looked at your website and was so happy!  Congratulations on making wrap-style dresses that don&#8217;t plunge to the bellybutton or require frumpy safety pinning to keep closed (like many of mine)!  You go, girl.</p>
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		<title>By: Jessica</title>
		<link>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-106316</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 04:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-106316</guid>
		<description>Yay for modesty not being dorky, and for not-so-common-sense wisdom in the original post!  

I love being able to make modest choices and still look attractive, and now there are so many modest clothing companies who are trying to fill the gaps in what we might be able to find in our local stores.  Google something about modest clothing and you'll find a bunch of goodies.  If nothing else, it encourages me when I see how many other like-minded women are out there!  Who says you can't look super pretty without looking provocative?

Jessica 
Owner, SakuraRose Boutique
www.sakurarose.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yay for modesty not being dorky, and for not-so-common-sense wisdom in the original post!  </p>
<p>I love being able to make modest choices and still look attractive, and now there are so many modest clothing companies who are trying to fill the gaps in what we might be able to find in our local stores.  Google something about modest clothing and you&#8217;ll find a bunch of goodies.  If nothing else, it encourages me when I see how many other like-minded women are out there!  Who says you can&#8217;t look super pretty without looking provocative?</p>
<p>Jessica<br />
Owner, SakuraRose Boutique<br />
<a href="http://www.sakurarose.com" rel="nofollow">www.sakurarose.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Valerie (Kyriosity)</title>
		<link>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-106101</link>
		<dc:creator>Valerie (Kyriosity)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-106101</guid>
		<description>I like that quote. And all of us sin as if we think the devil is capable of love. "Isn't it ever so kind of the serpent to want me to enjoy this fruit?"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like that quote. And all of us sin as if we think the devil is capable of love. &#8220;Isn&#8217;t it ever so kind of the serpent to want me to enjoy this fruit?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: nancyann</title>
		<link>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-105973</link>
		<dc:creator>nancyann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 04:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-105973</guid>
		<description>Valerie and Megan,
I know the Puritans tried some sumptuary laws in New England as well, but they were terrible failures for obvious reasons. But this discussion reminded me of a quote of Thomas Watson's: Some women dress as though they wanted the devil to fall in love with them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Valerie and Megan,<br />
I know the Puritans tried some sumptuary laws in New England as well, but they were terrible failures for obvious reasons. But this discussion reminded me of a quote of Thomas Watson&#8217;s: Some women dress as though they wanted the devil to fall in love with them.</p>
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		<title>By: Valerie (Kyriosity)</title>
		<link>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-103598</link>
		<dc:creator>Valerie (Kyriosity)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:26:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-103598</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Megan!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Megan!</p>
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		<title>By: Megan Lindsay</title>
		<link>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-103346</link>
		<dc:creator>Megan Lindsay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-103346</guid>
		<description>Oh dear.  Okay, here goes, Val.  I will apologize profusely if after reading this your eyes roll back in your head or you fall asleep.  I am passionate about this area of history, so I get a little giddy when allowed to talk about it!

I'm afraid I have only a scholar's answer: There's simply too much made-up garbage about the Middle Ages floating around on the Web to trust.  That doesn't mean there's nothing accurate about sumptuary laws on the internet.  I just haven't found much yet, other than basic descriptions and definitions.  And even the descriptions tend to focus more on social science than on ethics, so you're likely to read that class warfare rather than concerns for modesty led to sumptuary laws (although class warfare is part of the package too).

I was introduced to sumptuary laws by Professor Christiane Klapisch-Zuber, who is one of the most highly respected scholars of medieval Italy in the world, during a lecture she gave to the graduate history department at ASU about 10 years ago.  Her seminal work is "Women, Family and Ritual in Renaissance Italy", although she has published other books and who knows how many hundreds of articles as well (many of which are in French, but you can find translations).  I highly recommend anything she has written (or co-written with David Herlihy or Georges Duby).

As a student in college I did not always agree with Profesor Klapisch-Zuber's viewpoints.  She is not a Christian, and she is not inclined to think of the Middle Ages as Christian.  But she really challenged me to think.  And she graciously encouraged me when I offered alternate explanations than her own.  Although she is generally a women's studies (a.k.a. "feminist") scholar, I wouldn't let it daunt you.  She gives you so much meat to chew on that you shoudn't have trouble throwing away the bones.

(Oh, wow, how I wish I could write about all of this some day...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh dear.  Okay, here goes, Val.  I will apologize profusely if after reading this your eyes roll back in your head or you fall asleep.  I am passionate about this area of history, so I get a little giddy when allowed to talk about it!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid I have only a scholar&#8217;s answer: There&#8217;s simply too much made-up garbage about the Middle Ages floating around on the Web to trust.  That doesn&#8217;t mean there&#8217;s nothing accurate about sumptuary laws on the internet.  I just haven&#8217;t found much yet, other than basic descriptions and definitions.  And even the descriptions tend to focus more on social science than on ethics, so you&#8217;re likely to read that class warfare rather than concerns for modesty led to sumptuary laws (although class warfare is part of the package too).</p>
<p>I was introduced to sumptuary laws by Professor Christiane Klapisch-Zuber, who is one of the most highly respected scholars of medieval Italy in the world, during a lecture she gave to the graduate history department at ASU about 10 years ago.  Her seminal work is &#8220;Women, Family and Ritual in Renaissance Italy&#8221;, although she has published other books and who knows how many hundreds of articles as well (many of which are in French, but you can find translations).  I highly recommend anything she has written (or co-written with David Herlihy or Georges Duby).</p>
<p>As a student in college I did not always agree with Profesor Klapisch-Zuber&#8217;s viewpoints.  She is not a Christian, and she is not inclined to think of the Middle Ages as Christian.  But she really challenged me to think.  And she graciously encouraged me when I offered alternate explanations than her own.  Although she is generally a women&#8217;s studies (a.k.a. &#8220;feminist&#8221;) scholar, I wouldn&#8217;t let it daunt you.  She gives you so much meat to chew on that you shoudn&#8217;t have trouble throwing away the bones.</p>
<p>(Oh, wow, how I wish I could write about all of this some day&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Valerie (Kyriosity)</title>
		<link>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-102940</link>
		<dc:creator>Valerie (Kyriosity)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-102940</guid>
		<description>That's fascinating, Megan. Thanks for sharing your historical insight! Perhaps you could recommend a basic book (or website would be even better) on fashion history for those who want to explore that topic further?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s fascinating, Megan. Thanks for sharing your historical insight! Perhaps you could recommend a basic book (or website would be even better) on fashion history for those who want to explore that topic further?</p>
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		<title>By: Megan Lindsay</title>
		<link>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-102651</link>
		<dc:creator>Megan Lindsay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 04:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-102651</guid>
		<description>I learned about modesty in a very roundabout, rather odd way.  As an unbeliever in college I studied sumptuary laws, which were medieval laws governing modesty and fashion.  Different regions and cities had different rules -- how much fabric could be worn, what colors, what shoes, what time of day, etc.

I found it interesting that the societies with the most rules generally had the most rule-bending.  (Did you know that platform shoes actually were a medieval fashion -- invented in order to allow women to increase the number of inches of fabric in their skirts??)  And the more the rules, the further away from actual modesty things got.  Modesty was enforced by code, not by faith, and so people acted like the lawbreakers we are by nature.

The terrible ridiculousness of it all intrigued me.  I knew theses were Christian societies, earnestly trying to live out the gospel.  So why did modesty codes ultimately encourage the lasciviousness they were supposed to prevent?  When I became a believer I found help in what Nancy repeats here: "Modesty is an attitude. It isn’t flamboyant or ridiculous. It is reverent, God-honoring. A modest woman has integrity and self-respect. She cares more for pleasing God than exposing herself to the grandstands. She has security in knowing who she is and Whom she serves."  Modesty isn't about codes, but about finding freedom to dress, talk and walk in obedience to Christ.

My girls are very young, but they pay attention.  Our 7-year old asked at breakfast this morning why the girl in front of us at church had her sleeve hanging off her shoulder -- "was that modest, Mom?"  I am so thankful I didn't have to get into the details of the girl's clothing, but simply direct her through questions about having a modest attitude.  Soon she'll be old enough to enjoy the challenges of fashion history too.  What a rich way to encourage incarnational worldview thinking about modesty!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I learned about modesty in a very roundabout, rather odd way.  As an unbeliever in college I studied sumptuary laws, which were medieval laws governing modesty and fashion.  Different regions and cities had different rules &#8212; how much fabric could be worn, what colors, what shoes, what time of day, etc.</p>
<p>I found it interesting that the societies with the most rules generally had the most rule-bending.  (Did you know that platform shoes actually were a medieval fashion &#8212; invented in order to allow women to increase the number of inches of fabric in their skirts??)  And the more the rules, the further away from actual modesty things got.  Modesty was enforced by code, not by faith, and so people acted like the lawbreakers we are by nature.</p>
<p>The terrible ridiculousness of it all intrigued me.  I knew theses were Christian societies, earnestly trying to live out the gospel.  So why did modesty codes ultimately encourage the lasciviousness they were supposed to prevent?  When I became a believer I found help in what Nancy repeats here: &#8220;Modesty is an attitude. It isn’t flamboyant or ridiculous. It is reverent, God-honoring. A modest woman has integrity and self-respect. She cares more for pleasing God than exposing herself to the grandstands. She has security in knowing who she is and Whom she serves.&#8221;  Modesty isn&#8217;t about codes, but about finding freedom to dress, talk and walk in obedience to Christ.</p>
<p>My girls are very young, but they pay attention.  Our 7-year old asked at breakfast this morning why the girl in front of us at church had her sleeve hanging off her shoulder &#8212; &#8220;was that modest, Mom?&#8221;  I am so thankful I didn&#8217;t have to get into the details of the girl&#8217;s clothing, but simply direct her through questions about having a modest attitude.  Soon she&#8217;ll be old enough to enjoy the challenges of fashion history too.  What a rich way to encourage incarnational worldview thinking about modesty!</p>
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		<title>By: diane l. vaughan</title>
		<link>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-98196</link>
		<dc:creator>diane l. vaughan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-98196</guid>
		<description>Peggy Sue and Crystal,
Thank you for your kind words.  What a blessing to hear you were encouraged by "The Beauty of Modesty" and that it is available at your churches!  And thank you, Billie, for referring Joanne to the book review Nancy Wilson so graciously wrote up.  Joanne, I hope Mrs. Wilson's review is helpful.  BTW, it's kind of funny seeing your name being referred to in this kind of forum, so I thought I'd just chime in and acknowledge some of the comments.  What an interesting and crazy kind of world we live in!  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peggy Sue and Crystal,<br />
Thank you for your kind words.  What a blessing to hear you were encouraged by &#8220;The Beauty of Modesty&#8221; and that it is available at your churches!  And thank you, Billie, for referring Joanne to the book review Nancy Wilson so graciously wrote up.  Joanne, I hope Mrs. Wilson&#8217;s review is helpful.  BTW, it&#8217;s kind of funny seeing your name being referred to in this kind of forum, so I thought I&#8217;d just chime in and acknowledge some of the comments.  What an interesting and crazy kind of world we live in!  <img src='http://femina.reformedblogs.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Billie</title>
		<link>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-98183</link>
		<dc:creator>Billie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://femina.reformedblogs.com/2008/07/20/dress-codes/#comment-98183</guid>
		<description>You're very welcome!  As you can tell, I spend way too much time here!  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re very welcome!  As you can tell, I spend way too much time here!  <img src='http://femina.reformedblogs.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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